Topic: Tank mates for Rams/setting up my first American tank

[cakey87]

Hi!!!
I was thinking of setting up an African tank but I have decided with the size of my tank that some smaller American's would be better.
I have a 90L Aqua One 620 tank, with a biological filter. The filter media consists of ceramic noodles, carbon, white filter pads, black filter pads and an ammonia filter pad.
I have a heater that is currently maintaining a temp of 28 degrees C.
It has 2x18W PL lights
It has a bubble wall which spans the length of the tank
Here's a picture of the setup now:
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/163/flashon12pi.jpg
I am NOT keeping the community fish that you see there, in with Cichlids. They are going to a new home- my uncles big 4ft community tank. The tank is nearing the end of it's cycle (yes I was stupid enough to put fish in when cycling, but only because that's what the fish shop told me ) and it's got an algae bloom which is settling down.
I am planting it, am going to get 14 plants (there's a mix I want to buy) and planting around the back. I have a few in there and a few fake ones but am going to remove the fake ones.
My current parameters: 230ppm hardness, 0 ammonia, PH is high (don't know why!) my test only goes to 7.4 and it's further blue than that. I have just purchased more test kits- nitrite, nitrate, gh & kh (mine doesn't do both) and a high range PH kit.

Alright... so I have some questions.

What do I need to change in my tank? I know I have to change my pH... I am just not sure how- and the other thing is my hardness... I really need to test the GH and KH and then work out how to alter them if needed.

Will I need to fully clean out the water and gravel?

Will my gravel be okay? I like it, but with the fish I wish to get I think a dark substrate would look better.

Are American Cichlids hard to look after? I am looking at Rams and Apistos.

Will my biological filter be enough?



Now like I said, I am looking at Bolivian Rams- they're the one fish I love most.

So would a pair be okay in my 90L tank?

What other fish can I have with them? I really like Cockatoo Apistos and Banded Apistos.

Will a pair of Zebra Plecos be okay with them as an algae eater, or is there another algae eater that would be better?

Should I put a schooling fish in with them, if so what would you suggest?

What do they eat?

Any other information would be very helpful! I don't want to go making any mistakes!

[Gerry]

I will try and help with some of your Questions,

I would not change all you water  and the gravel is a matter of choice.

How to buffer your water, I'm not sure, peat in the filter maybe, best not to try and do it with chemicals as you will get fluctuations

Cichlids are not hard to look after, weekly 30%water changes to keep your nitrates down,
good filtration, 90 litres x 10 = 900 litres an hour or if you use an external canister just over half this.

Your stocking I am not sure about, never was much good at working that out, sure others will help you on that 1.

Hope that is a bit of help, the water Ph question hopefully gets more input by some with more experience in it,,I'm luck to have neutral water here.

[tracey]

Alright... so I have some questions.

What do I need to change in my tank? I know I have to change my pH... I am just not sure how- and the other thing is my hardness... I really need to test the GH and KH and then work out how to alter them if needed.  It would be far better to chose fish that can live at your current ph than to try and change it.  There's usually a good reason that water at any given place has a specific ph, and it can be very, very difficult to alter it.  Using Reverse Osmosis or filtered water is about the only way to bring ph down, and that gets very, very expensive.  Ph fluctuations can cause HUGE problems for your fish, so its better to buy something that doesn't require you to alter it

Will I need to fully clean out the water and gravel?  I wouldn't personally.  Gravel can contain a lot of beneficial bacteria, so you want to save as much of that as possible

Will my gravel be okay? I like it, but with the fish I wish to get I think a dark substrate would look better. As long as your gravel has well-rounded edges, which most aquarium gravel does, then it shoudl be fine.  Dark gravel looks good with some fish, but its not always a very natural look

Are American Cichlids hard to look after? I am looking at Rams and Apistos.  Rams have their issues, especially when it comes to their water.  Apisto's are not quite so picky about things.  Apart from their water requirements, neither are what anyone could consider "difficult" to look after

Will my biological filter be enough?  Like Gerry said, you shoudl be aiming at around 900lph.  Check your filters capacity and see if its close to this



Now like I said, I am looking at Bolivian Rams- they're the one fish I love most.

So would a pair be okay in my 90L tank?  90 litres is a litte over 20 gallons, so I think you could get away with a pair in there, but no more than that

What other fish can I have with them? I really like Cockatoo Apistos and Banded Apistos.  Don't mix Apisto's, its way more trouble than its worth.  Pick a species and stick with it.

Will a pair of Zebra Plecos be okay with them as an algae eater, or is there another algae eater that would be better?  Zebra Pleco's aren't algae eaters, they're actually quite carnivorous.  They also average around $200 each when you can find them, as export of them has been banned and they're pretty rare.  Personally, I'd go with a Common Bristlenose Pleco to keep your algae under control

Should I put a schooling fish in with them, if so what would you suggest?  Your tank isn't relaly large enough to cope with more than a pair of whatever cichlids you chose and a small Pleco.  I really wouldn't look at adding any more fish to your tank.

What do they eat?  Both Ram's and Apisto's have a pretty typical SA/CA cichlid diet, a mixture of veggies and protein, with treats of things like bloodworms and brine shrimp.

Any other information would be very helpful! I don't want to go making any mistakes!

[cakey87]

Thanks! That's really helpful.

So a pair of Cockatoo or Banded Apistos it is.
As well as a Bristlenose Pleco.

So you don't think I could put 4 lemon tetras or something similar with them? Besides room being a problem, is the temperment of the Apistos good- as in, can they cope with other fish? Obviously not community fish, just the pleco and maybe tetras.

I am still a bit concerned about the pH... this is after adding the conditioning salts and tri start which was recommended to me for community fish (by the fish shop). But now I am concerned these may have altered the pH and I could have just left the water as it was- just using the tri start to remove Chlorine and Chloramine.

[tracey]

Do you have the ingredients of the "conditioning salts"?  They sound a little like something an lfs recommends to make money, rather than help people 

[Gerry]

Don't mix Apisto's, its way more trouble than its worth.  Pick a species and stick with it.

Appistogramma aggassizii and Apistogramma hongsloi were 2 that I fancied getting in my spare 75 and breeding, so don't put them in there together

[cakey87]

Not here with me I don't, but when I go home I will see what they have written on them!
They're in a plastic bag sorta thing, they look like fine blue crystals and they say 'Water Conditioning Salts'. The packet is very plain, and it says to put something like 5g per 10litres of water.

So really, when I set up my tank should I only be adding the Wardley Tri Start? It's a 'water ager' that removes the chlorine and chloramine.

You know it's funny you say that because Dad kept telling me when I was setting up the tank, "I don't understand why you need the conditioning salts, when I had my tank all I used was the Tri Start."

Because if I don't need the salts, perhaps I should empty the water out and put fresh water in with Tri Start, as it may get my pH down... what sort of hardness do the Apistos like?

I've purchased some better test kits, so when they arrive I will test the town water and see what it's like. It might be fine without those salts...

Hope I am making sense!

They might be better if I had soft water (rain water)... but I am using the towns water which as far as I know is hard.

If I have to clean out the water that's in there, should I clean the gravel too? I am hesitant to do that because of all the good bacteria... and if I do, should I add something like SeaChem Stability?

Sorry for all the questions!

[cakey87]

Ok... here tis.

"Aqua Serene
Water Conditioner
Turns tap water into Aquarium Water
300g"

"Changes tap water into aquarium water though the addition of essential salts and minerals. Bacteria and fungi inhibitors are incorporated to protect fish.
Directions: Add 5g per 10 litres of water. Repeat when water is changed or added."

"Active ingredients:
Magnesium Sulphate 475g/kg
Sodium Chloride 470g/kg
Acrifalvin 27g/kg
Calcium Sulphate 20g/kg
Iron Sulphate 1.5g/kg
Sodium Thiosulphate 10g/kg
Potassium Chloride 2.5g/kg
Sodium Phosphate 10g/kg
Sodium Bicarbonate 10g/kg"

So do I really need them? Or do I just need to treat my water with the Tri Start?

[tracey]

No wonder your ph is so high    Thats pretty much the same mix you'd find in any Rift Lake salt mix    Believe me, unless you're planning on keeping African cichlids, you really, really don't need it.

If you don't have any fish in the tank at the moment, then I'd suggest emptying out as much of the water as you can and starting all over again with tap water, just treated with your Tri Start.  You shouldn't have to do anything to your gravel, just leave enough water in there to keep it damp until you can get it filled with regular tap water that you've treated with Tri Start. 

I can't believe they recommended something with Acriflavin in it as a regular water treatment    Its an antiseptic that should only ever be used to treat illness or disease, certainly not as a regular additive to your water. 

[cakey87]

Oh god, thank you thank you thank you!!!!
I will be emptying out that tank water asap and putting in my ordinary town water with the Tri Start.
And I am NEVER taking the advice of a fish shop EVER again. Seriously, they've spun me the biggest load of codswobble (to put it nicely) since I started up my tank.
I am definitely not keeping Africans, I am going for the Americans for sure because that's what would be best for my tank (and guess what they told me? When I was asking about Cichlids, they told  me I could fit 10 or more in there!!!!).
Thank you so much for giving me an answer!

I want to put a layer of black gravel on the top (am keeping my old gravel because of the good bacteria) and some plants, so when  do that- I'll do the water too.

I will keep you updated on my progress.

I can't thank you enough!!

[tracey]

You're very welcome    And its a very wise move not to trust anything your lfs says    Most employee's don't really know anything about fish, they're just out to sell you stuff to make more money.  You can't really blame them for that, its their job, but it can make life extremely difficult for a newcomer to fishkeeping.  I hate to think how many ppl have been put off fishkeeping due to bad experiences, brought on by bad advise from their lfs 

I'd personally advise against adding more gravel on top of what you already have.  The bacteria in your gravel relies on water and the oxygen it carries permeating the top layer of your gravel, and if you add more gravel to your tank, it will prevent that exchange and your good bacteria in the gravel will start to die off.  If you'd like a different colour gravel in your tank, then it would probably be best to remove what you have, put it into some form of water-permeable material, like a clean pair of womens stockings, and leave it in your tank for a few weeks.  That will give the bacteria time to migrate from your current gravel to your new gravel 

Also, you'll need to start adding something to your tank to keep your good bacteria alive.  It will only survive for a certain time with fish waste to feed on.  You can use pure ammonia to do this, or add something like a piece of fish or shrimp and allow it to rot in the tank.  That will also produce ammonia to keep your bacteria alive.

[cakey87]

Ammonia?
I've just got over the large spike of that with my community fish!

Will StressZyme be keeping the bacteria alive? I've been using that as the directions said to get all that bacteria going along properly.

[Gerry]

No,,,you need to add a small amount of ammonia or something that will produce ammonia, so that the bacteria have something to live off (eat kind of thing)

[cakey87]

Ah ok, so will that be easy to get rid of when I am ready for fish?

[Maddy mad man]

When your ammonia and nitrite reads zero then your tank is cycled