Topic: Need Opinions: Can I add a Puffer to a Tank???

[GJN]

I have a 55 gallon tank that I set up not too long ago and currently have one JD, two Convicts, an Orange Zebra, and a Pleco in the tank. I'd like to get some opinions on adding a Puffer to this tank. Do you think this would work out ok and that the Cichlids and Puffer would get along with each other?? Or do you think this would lead to big problems??? Thanks!

[Ezekial]

Short answer, NO.

Besides the fact that your tank is already overstocked, puffers do not mix well with cichlids.  Depending on the puffer they can be very aggressive and almost all are fin biters.  The puffer will either harrass your other fish to the point that the stress will cause illness or the other fish will kill him, not really many other options.   

[GJN]

What do you mean my tank is overstocked???
It's a 55 gallon tank and there are only 5 fish in it: One JD, Two Convicts, One Orange Zebra, and a Pleco. That's a ratio of approx. 10 gallons per fish.

Thanks for your opinion regarding the Puffer question.

Any other opinions out there???

[Gerry]

I don't think Joe means the gallons so much as the room, cichlid are very territorial and like  fair bit of space.
If your cons are a pair and breed they will want even more space and become very aggressive.

As Joe said, Puffers and Cichlids don't get on.

[Dempseydude]

Generally to determine if a tank is overstocked, you go by how many inches the fish will be full grown. Then you figure 2-3 gallons per inch of fish for American cichlids (I prefer 3 gallons per inch). Some types of fish are messier than others so they require even more water (ie Oscars) and some have more requirements because of aggression (ie Midas/ Red devil). Not a rato of how many fish per gallon. About puffers I can't help you, sorry. Just my 2 cents worth, hope it helps.
Dave

[GJN]

WOW - - and the American Cichlid expert in the fish dept at PetsMart told me to use a ratio of one gallon per inch at maturity. I was told that the JD would most likely get to be 8" and that the two Convicts would mist likely get to be 6" at maturity - - consequently I was told that I could add several more fish to the 55 gallon tank. Apparently, the opinions here would give 2-3 gallons per inch and not 1 gallon per inch.

The two convicts don't seem to be a breeding pair either as one of the cons has been hanging out with the JD, as noted on a different topic thread.

Hey - - no positive thumbs up from anyone yet on adding the Puffer to the tank??? I understand they also grow to around 7." It's an unusual and cool looking fish and I was hoping I could add the Puff face to the tank 

I'm still hoping I get a positive hoping to

[tracey]

WOW - - and the American Cichlid expert in the fish dept at PetsMart told me to use a ratio of one gallon per inch at maturity.

*Sigh*  Thats a very common piece of advise give by petstores and its about THE WORST piece of idiocy that is perpetuated by ignorant pet store employees 

The "one inch per gallon" rule is really only applicable to community tanks when you're dealing with fish such as Tetras, Barbs, Rasboras, small schooling fish.  When it comes to cichlids, they need much, much more space.  Its much more than 2 to 3 gallons per inch, and it varies a great deal depending on which fish you're looking at.

For your fish:

A pair of Convicts needs a minimum of 20 gallons.  Thats per pair, so if you had 2 pairs of Cons, you'd need a 40 gallon tank.

A single JD needs a minimum of 45 gallons, a pair needs 55 gallons or more.

An Orange Zebra....... I'm guessing thats a Red Zebra (Metraclima estherae), an African cichlid that requires much different water parameters to your other American Cichlids and really shouldn't be kept in the same tank.

So, to calculate the size of tank you really need for the fish that you have, you need 20 gallons for the Cons and 45 gallons for the JD.  So, you really need a 65 gallon or larger tank to keep the fish that you have.

[GJN]

Sorry to disagree with Tracey about needing a minimum 45 gallon tank for just one JD .    I tend to agree with Dempsey Dave and the 2-3 gallons per inch rule. I also think that 1 gallon per inch does not apply here. But saying that one JD that should grow to 8" at maturity will need 45 gallons just for himself seems a little extreme.

Regarding the comment about the Red (Orange) Zebra. Yes, I know he's a foreigner in a S. American tank - - but so far the Red (Orange) Zebra and the American Cichlids show no signs of stress or other unfavorable indications due to different water requirements. If I notice any problems, I will certainly move the Zebra to the other tank.

I've had a similar size  African Cichlid Tank with mostly Blue Zebras for many years and have seen them produce tons of fry leading to a large enough tank population that I actually had to give fry away just to reduce the number of fish in that tank. And I used tap water with a little salt added and NovAqua when I did water changes. I'm also doing the same with the American cichlid tank (will start adding some salt soon) and have seen no ill effects so far.

Come on - - I'd like to get more comments and opinions on the Puffer question

Thanks

[Biff Malawi]

Sorry I will have to agree with the others on the puffer question. Most puffers should be kept with only thier own kind and a large number alone without even thier own kind.

The dwarf puffer and some South American Puffers have been kept with a few others like ottos or some cats. The dwarf has been known to slowly kill fish many times it's size and often others of it's own. Figure 8 and Green Spotted Puffers can sometimes be kept with mollys but F8s are brackish fish and GSPs eventually must be kept in full salt water. Most people I have encountered who have tried to keep puffs with other fish have had some success for a while and then woken up to a massacre.

What puffer are you thinking of? You mentioned 7". Puffers are even messier than cichlids and need major over filtration and massive weekly water changes. Bioload alone would would make it difficult to add a 7" puffer to such a small and crowded tank. The GSP grows to 7" and requires at least 30g for a single fish with no tank mates.

I personally have a hard time with the idea of 1 fish in a 70g tank and wished you could keep puffs with other fish but in over a year of daily research and some personal experience it is at best very risky.

[GJN]

Thanks for the Info Biff.

I think it's a green spotted Puffer as it is greenish in color with dark round spots. Well I purchased a baby today (about 1") and I'm keeping it in a hospital tank right now. Never had a Puffer but was told it could grow to 7". I just looked at it and it's curled up in a corner of the tank (I have the lights off), like it's found a comfortable spot to sleep or rest.

I am really disappointed to get these negative opinions about addding the Puffer to the Cichlid tank. Apparently, you don't think the Cichlids can take care of themselves against a Puffer?? So it looks like I might have to return the Puffer to the store, as I don't want to keep him in a hospital tank indefinitely and I don't want to set up a third tank just for one Puffer

[stilllearnin]

Apparently, you don't think the Cichlids can take care of themselves against a Puffer??

Nope
there's 2 ways that combo ends

1 - the puffer tortures the cichlids and slowly kills them by stress or infection from the fin biteing -- lots of people over look the fact that those cool little puffers have sharp fused teeth used to eat shells in the wild,  teeth designed to break shells , used on flesh - imagine 

2 - big cichlids tire of the puffer and dispose of it fast.

I think it's a green spotted Puffer

If so just like  Biff said - those are brackish fish not freshwater so they shouldn't be mixed with freshwater cichlids -- yeah stores sell them as freshwater - they lie

WOW - - and the American Cichlid expert in the fish dept at PetsMart told me to use a ratio of one gallon per inch at maturity.

First - good luck finding an expert at PetsMart  , theres a difference between sales trained "expert" and someone who knows how to keep fish.

The one inch or two inch,etc.. rules are old wives tales with little to no truth behind them in the real world with common sense.

Why do I think that way?

take 10 - 1" neons  = 10 gallon tank
1 - 10" dempsey = 10 gallons tank?  NO

Do the math and rethink it that way even if you get bored 

Take 1 - 10" dempsey  - figure it's body height,length and thickness  - guaranteed it's equal to more then  40 , 1" neons      that'd mean a 40 gallon minium for the dempsey 

[GJN]

Thanks for your opinion stillearnin - - but if you read my previous post you would have seen that I do not agree with the 1" to 1 gallon theory. As I posted earlier, I tend to agree with Dempsey Dave and the 2-3 gallons per inch rule. I was told that the JD should grow to around 8" and not 10" (as you stated). Your statement regarding a 40 gallon minimum for the JD assumes that the Dempsey will grow to 10" and consequently your math calculates 4 gallons per inch. Now this leads to another discussion about whether a JD in a 55 gallon tank will grow to 8" or 10" or something else???

And although I certainly don't think the 1" per gallon theory applies for Cichlids, there are different opinions about whether you should allow 2-3 gallons, 4 gallons or more for every adult inch size. I guess I will find out just how big the Dempsey gets in the 55 gallon tank - - and for now I am keeping the current occupants in the tank.

Regarding the PetsMart Sales person: he isn't just a normal salesperson, as he has a very big  American Cichlid fish at home with a variety of American Cichlids. But like all of us, he needs to gain more experience and knowledge.

Looks like you're another BIG NO for the Puffer. You mean those Puff faces have little sharp teeth??     By the way - - got the Puffer at WalMart, not Petsmart.

[Maddy mad man]

No from me too.  Excluding myself, you have had opinions of very, very experienced people and I am surprised that you still got a puffer.  If anyone knows their fish its these guys.

[stilllearnin]

Now this leads to another discussion about whether a JD in a 55 gallon tank will grow to 8" or 10" or something else???

Another myth

Fish do NOT grow or limit growth according to their tank size. Unless stunted by poor water quality.
The space issues addressed are mainly concerning territiorial behavior and just plain room for the fish to move and most peoples maintaince routines (ie water quality).





Any and all good reliable sources will tell you dempseys (especially males) average 25-30 cm  (9.84 - 11.84 inches) Obviously some smaller but some also larger so 10" seems like a good rough average 

Looks like you're another BIG NO for the Puffer. You mean those Puff faces have little sharp teeth??

Yes thats why they call them beaks instead out mouths.
And if they don't have hard items to eat the teeth overgrow and cause trouble feeding and/or lead to starvation.

check some decient sites on them like:
this one

and this one

note what they say about fins and aggression

he has a very big  American Cichlid fish at home with a variety of American Cichlids.

You might be suprised at what some of the people replying on this forum keep as well ,  theres a few of us that have a big cichlid or two or  even a few 



The difference is stores are sales driven, right or wrong thats why they're in business.
People here are just giving advice,many probally already learned things the hard way.

I myself - am not a person to say a dempsey needs a 55 gallon tank to itself or even a 45 (usually), but  overall I would side with the advice given by Tracy and others about tank size vs. what the store told you.

[GJN]

Madasa - - I guess I didn't mention that I just got the Puffer today. I didn't think it would be a real big deal to add him to the tank and I thought I'd try it out, but I placed him in a hospital tank first for observation. I also didn't think I would get so many NO'S about this idea - - so looks like I'll probably end up returning him soon . Thanks for the opinion!