Topic: growth of a true red terror

[amcichguy]

needing help from anyone with experience with the festae or true red terror..soon i will be buying 2-4" females from jeff rapps and i wanted to know how long it will take for them to grow another 2" to a total of 6" if i put them into a 75 gallon tank with a divider (so they cant hurt each other) and feed them growth enhancing foods with treats of krill superba also maybe some cooked shrimp now and then, possibly some freeze dried crickets now and then? please help as i am going to try to get a pair but i cannot purchase males smaller than 6" and i do not think it will work out as well if i dont let the females grow out to the same size so they arent inherently weeker by size alone. also i would probably only house them in the same 75 gallon for about 4 weeks then i would most likely be buying another 75 gal to put one of them into. as that size tank is way cheap here.

[stilllearnin]

will be buying 2-4" females from jeff rapps

i cannot purchase males smaller than 6"

Jeff's stocklist says he has 4-4.5" males and females.
males $30
females $35

i do not think it will work out as well if i dont let the females grow out to the same size so they arent inherently weeker by size alone.

males will outgrow females 99% of the time even if they start out at the exact same size.


A friend of mine got a wild pair around 3-4" in feb ,kept in prefect conditions, the female is now around 6" the male is around 9-10".
Female is probally growing slower from egg production but if your looking for a pair I'm guessing your at least thinking about breeding them.


Either way you go with red terrors it's risky but thats why there isn't a ton of people breeding them and helping keep the price up a little.

[amcichguy]

since jeff has a minimum order i thought that i would get my females from him and in the interest of diversifying my gene pool i would buy my male from a different supplier (shark aquarium has wild males but they are 6") just thought that in order to increase the chances of the female being "strong" enough for the male to want to breed with her that i should grow her out to the same size to start off with. i have heard that they can be difficult to breed at times....especially larger ones but i am willing to put in the effort as there arent many breeders of them out there and like you said that keeps the price of them up there.

[stilllearnin]

good luck with the project    cool cichlids

Just a thought

Wilds should be unrealted or unrelated enough even if they all come from one person. 4" wild cichlids don't stay in family groups like the ones stuck inside tanks.

shark aquarium has wild males but they are 6"

If you read whats posted on other forums,you might want to check who supplied those  and save yourself some shipping in case they came from somewhere your already ordeing from 

[amcichguy]

well that is good to hear as i would prefer to just buy both my males and my females from jeff. i have heard nothing but good things from people who have ordered from him, and whenever anyone is asked where to get good quality fish or something a lil more rare...it is tangledupincichlids that is the recomended place to go. his shipping is a lil bit steap but from what i hear it is well worth it for the stock that he carries. and of course then i could get males and females of the same size to start with (4-5" as i do not have the 2 to 3 years to grow out a group of juvies) since i am in the process of starting a lil breeding business (gonna start with blue jack dempsey's, green terrors, red terrors, regular jack dempsey's, convicts, and blue rams to name just a few that i would like to or already have started doing) thank you for your VERY helpful advice it is very much apreciated.

[stilllearnin]

i am in the process of starting a lil breeding business (gonna start with blue jack dempsey's, green terrors, red terrors, regular jack dempsey's, convicts, and blue rams

Good luck

cons and dempseys are easy fish to start with but for a "business" they're about  the 2  most worthless, hard to sell fish around 

In breeder or wholesale quanity they're about 1/10th the price of say  festae and (direct) retail they have about 1/100th of the customers.

whenever anyone is asked where to get good quality fish or something a lil more rare...it is tangledupincichlids

Yep Jeff has a lot of rarer fish he's,been around a while and has lots of connections.

He's not the only one around though some  other people have plenty of rare fish these days. 

[amcichguy]

very true...i am really not wanting to breed the regular dempsey.. my focus will be on trying to get a decent rate of blue per spawn. as for the cons i am thinking of getting rid of them in favor of a more valuable specie....any suggestions? i was thinking maybe honduran red points...or one of the apisto specie.

[amcichguy]

and back to the red terror conversation......i was reading a story about someone who paired up a male and female at a more "grown up" size i think it was 6 or 8 inches and in the story the female laid another clutch of eggs like 2 weeks after the first batch...and without fertilizing the eggs the male killed the female. ive also read in other stories that the females will lay eggs after just 2 weeks...should i remove the eggs at 2 weeks so as there are no more fry for the male to worry about and thus have him fertilize another batch rather than killing his mate because there is already fry to look after? just a thought i wanted to cover and get advice on before i am in desperate need of the info (i like to do lots and lots of research before-hand)

[stilllearnin]

Removeing fry at what time - depends on the individual pair and some trial an error.

The problems that happen (usually) are - one fish will protect fry,while the other wants to eat them to  make the area safe for new fry  and it's not always one sex or the other.

Some pairs won't spawn with fry in the tank either.
Some pairs will try to spawn and try to care for the older fry at the same time.
Some fish,once you pull fry will notice and turn on the mate since the fry are gone 

Thats why breeding bigger aggressive cichlids isn't done by everyone and why a lot of people just decide to breed fish through dividers.

Another thing that is a decideing factor for some people is fry left with the parents grow faster then fry pulled early.


The last thing that plays a role in removeing fry is space! If you pull fry every two weeks and the pairs keep spawning,you need room for 1,000's of fry 

Thats what keeps breeding the big guys interesting,fun and annoying at the same time 

my focus will be on trying to get a decent rate of blue per spawn

I'm not a fan of those fish , but good luck -- don't be disapointed if their mortality rate is high and production is low , it's  normal with them.

as for the cons i am thinking of getting rid of them in favor of a more valuable specie....any suggestions? i was thinking maybe honduran red points...or one of the apisto specie.

Cons vs. red points   -- red points (for now) , but realize red point prices are dropping fast , they breed just like convicts    Anything that breeds easy enough that  people do it consistanly on accident with no work is cheap,maybe not in stores but if your looking to breed, I'm guessing you plan on selling wholesale (to stores,etc..) as well.

Cons vs. apisto's - apisto's will never be a "big money" fish but they're worth more then cons and their prices seem pretty steady.

any suggestions?

If you like a species - it seems like less work.
The harder it is to find the more it's worth.
Medium sized species (on average) seem to have a lot more buyers then dwarf's or the big monsters.

[amcichguy]

the reason that i was thinking about red points is that besides jeff rapps there are only like 2 people who list them on aquabid and noone on ebay with them. i also dont mind really if the blue dempsey's have a high mortality/low turnout with the value of them to date. the breeding of the fish is really just a starting point so that i can get even more fish tanks and help add to my income so i can save up and get an import license and import them rather cheaply (and more different varieties) and sell them off at retail prices. for example an exporter in thailand has several specie that are expensive and hard to find retail for very cheap(red texas for under a buck each, or true green terrors for under 50 cents, or kenyii for less than 50 cents, gold severums for 45 cents, and of course the blue dempsey for 1 dollar) then i can branch out and make even more money without the headaches associated with breeding. in case you are wondering i do not have a "normal" job....i live with and take care of my elderly parents and medicare and the social security admin pay me a monthly amount (rather small as it is) and im looking to set myself up for the future and at the least increase my income for the time being. so getting rich off of breeding fish isnt what i am really setting up for, it is just to make enough to set up for importing and retailing at a later date. anyway thank you for all of your help i am very greatful for the assistance.

[stilllearnin]

in case you are wondering i do not have a "normal" job....i live with and take care of my elderly parents

  nice thing to do and not easy.

I got more into fish while takeing care of my mother and grandmother when they both had  cancer so I know exactly where your coming from.

My "normal job" now is fish.

for example an exporter in thailand has several specie that are expensive and hard to find retail for very cheap(red texas for under a buck each, or true green terrors for under 50 cents, or kenyii for less than 50 cents, gold severums for 45 cents, and of course the blue dempsey for 1 dollar)

Some things to think about (been there done that)

Red texas - are hybrids  , 99% of those things look like ugly deformed texas cichlids and are not red.Even though most suppliers show pictures of bright cherry red fish.

Not sure which exporter you are thinking of but watch name plays on fish , for example
true green terror's from asia , 99% of the time are just the common terrors that aren't hybrids ,not the expensive "true green terror"
and blue dempseys from asia are not blue,they're just hormon treated normal dempseys that are blue-er then normal and sometimes their even just dyed fish 

The only breeders still of large numbers of blue dempseys are in argentina.They supply 95% of the blue demseys in the hobby (includeing Rapps).

Another thing to keep in mind is freight and import/customs fees.
A 45 cent fish will never actually cost you 45 cents 
A 75 cent fish bought inside the U.S. will end up a lot cheaper then a 45 cent imported fish.

Something else to think about , gold severums are cheaper then that out of florida as well as kenyii  if your going to buy them in import worthy quanities.

The last thing to keep in mind is world events - like right now ,due to their military take over yesterday - shipments from thailand to here,may be banned. If not now it can happen 2 mins from now once someone has an issue    -- can happen with any country.

then i can branch out and make even more money without the headaches associated with breeding.

Breeding is still the biggest $ maker in the end.
And once you deal with airport delays,lost shipments,etc.. breeding is a lot less headache 

the reason that i was thinking about red points is that besides jeff rapps there are only like 2 people who list them on aquabid and noone on ebay with them.

Noone lists them on ebay - because technically your not allowed to sell live fish on ebay (it's only inforced if someone reports the auction) -- thats how aquabid got permission to use ebays system 
    There used to be a lot of them on aquabid by me,ken davis,aquaman ,aqaua(something),Rarefishatlax, bennys tropicals , jmtrops and more until noone bid on them anymore.

Put it this way - if you want a large quanity of red points,contact me off the forum and you might be suprised at their prices.



Good luck on the business idea  Just know what your getting into before you waste a lot of time and $ , been there done that too 

[amcichguy]

you make very valid points for me to keep in mind. it was grand aquatics that was the thailand exporter i was talking of...but i also hadnt been watching the news so i did not know of any take overs (im sure that an import cut-off is already in the works in that case) in any case do you know of any wholesalers inside the US that have decent prices and a good list of available stock? i have a list from international pets (supposedly the largest supplier of pet stores in the US) theyre stock is extremely limited and the prices are not wholesale at all, more like 10% off of retail. i dont know of anyone that can run a successful business with a mere 10% mark-up. and there is a company called ekkwill waterlife resources that i have an aplication for (but they want a credit check just to order and pay cash up front or to even see theyre stock/price list) still i think i will submit the ap anyway. im sure you are 100% right about breeding being the biggest $ maker but i just dont know if i can make enough to warrant leasing a space and expanding behond just a home based thing without at least adding some kind of wholesale or import purchases to mark up and sell. on the blue dempsey thing i have price lists from 2 different suppliers from argentina.... one is international fishes and the other is i believe called AQF aquarium. but they both want a VERY large quantity order(international fishes wants 4 dollars each with a minimum of 500 and the other wants 3.20 and the minimum is around the same) $2000 plus 150 for paperwork and another 9 for each box then the customs/ fish and wildlife fees....then add the cargo shipping rate.....thats a bit steap for me as of this moment...let alone the $100 a year for an import license or the need to drive at least 2 hours to the nearest acceptable airport to pick em up. seeing as how i would want to sell those little blue "golden nuggets" for $10 each so i can "crush" the competition my gross return from them would be $5000 so at best i would double my money. im not saying that i would be unhappy with that but to warrant leasing space id have to sell 500 of em a month and double up on a few other types as well. but first i need the capitol to make that kind of investment. so there is my dilema and i am thinking that breeding is the key to solving that dilema. but anyway thank you very much for being so helpful and understanding i am truely greatful.

[amcichguy]

i almost forgot to touch on the e-bay topic... i think that ebay has lifted those restrictions because they have a catergory just for live tropical fish it is in the home and garden section with the sub-topic of fish, turtles, and frogs then within that section there is a catergory for tropical fish. lots of people use that area to sell live fish. they do however not want anyone selling fish that are endangered or threatened on there. i also believe that they frown upon the selling of piranha as they are illegal in many parts of the country. they also have a policy of at the least priority shipping on all live items. i think that they are allowing this because they were not happy that aquabid was formed for such a thing and wanted that extra business. i lean towards aquabid myself as they do not charge you for a listing whereas ebay wants a substantial chunk of the sellers profit margin to list. now im not completely "hating" on ebay there are still some great deals on there for a buyer.

[stilllearnin]

seeing as how i would want to sell those little blue "golden nuggets" for $10 each so i can "crush" the competition

M&M castle regularly tranships them for people for less then $10 ea.

The main breeders of them also offer them a few times a year via aquabid and cheaper via email ,either direct sales or transshipped through M&M.

They wholesale out of florida certain times of the year under $10ea also.

I don't have any interest in blue dempseys so thats all I can tell you about their current prices.

i have a list from international pets (supposedly the largest supplier of pet stores in the US)

   

in any case do you know of any wholesalers inside the US that have decent prices and a good list of available stock?

If you have a business liscense , tax # and meet the minium order amounts,
There's:
Dolphin
Seagrest farms
5D tropicals
Jeff Rapps (yes he wholesales also)
Me  (yes I wholesale also) 
Oliver at below water (if you can import from canada)
and
There's ohh 7-8,000 others 
All are a little different in reguards to what they want for wholesale customers but a liscense and tax # is the best place to start and most widely asked for things.

let alone the $100 a year for an import license or the need to drive at least 2 hours to the nearest acceptable airport to pick em up

If you have a transhipper or customs broker in your area - they will import for you and forward to your closest airport. Some will forward via fedex - each one has their own rules and different fees from $200-$500, but I use them sometimes since my nearest airport that allows importing is about  4-6 hours minium away.

Where do you live? (general area)
Might know people closer to you 

[amcichguy]

cool thanks for the info....in all of my searching i could not find a single trans-shipper...and i did not know that a customs broker could import for me(i have a link bookmarked to the official US customs office website and they have a list of brokers on there that are based at the st louis airport which would be easiest since my nearest airport williamson county regional gets cargo from st louis airport delivered regularly through a company whos parent is american airlines) but i thought that they only handled the customs paperwork and fees. i live in southern illinois (bout an hour north of paducah kentucky) and also in illinois since i will be doing business under my true full name i only need a tax id (or IBT #)to conduct business in the state and collect sales tax from residents of illinois (it is also free of charges to get an IBT # so i already have one) ive got all of the forms to start filing and paying sales tax. if i was to import directly from a south american dealer(or anywhere else for the matter) the closest airport that the fish and wildlife mark as a "dedicated" airport is louisville ky which is about 3.5 hours from me so id have to make a special petition to be allowed to import to st louis which is only like a lil over 1.5 hours from me so in reality importing directly without a broker or trans-shipper would be a major pain in my butt so id actually prefer to pay a lil extra per fish to avoid the hassles(you made an excellent point that breeding would be less of a headache)