Topic: Discus questions

[whitedevil]

Howdy, I am setting up a 20g sumped 45g tank for discus.
I have heard from other forums that are discus specific that there is a "stunting of growth" that occurs if they grow up in a planted tank.

Does anyone have any experience with this, I mean these guys seem to be bare bottom addicts and well IMO a office tank in a professionals office will look like crap with a barebottom.  I got bare bottom breeders here but I dont show those to anyone cause they look like crap.

Will they stunt in a planted tank?
what is the fish per gallon rule with discus?

any pointers will be great, weve kept cichlids from the new and old world as well as pretty much everything in between including O's and guppies so its not like we dont know what we are doing its just this is our first time with the delicate discus and well its an investment with the price of these fish and we dont want any early funerals.

we plan on getting our discus stock from www.rockymountaindiscus.com  their reviews are great and they are very customer oriented.

[callen]

Our good friend Scott owns his own LFS and a vast knowledge with discus.  I will post his article here in hopes it will help you.  I know he will not mind as we are here to teach the best way we can

Keeping WC Discus? Not as hard as it looks...
Ok, in all fairness it?s not all that easy either. But for a true blue, dyed in the wool Discus fanatic, there is nothing more satisfying than a big ?ol school swimming around in a well planted show tank. Why are we starting with wild fish rather than their easier to keep cousins you might ask? Because if you learn the methods necessary to keep wild fish, even if you start with hybrids that may be more forgiving, then you?ll have the skills to keep any of them.

Everybody has one?
One of the biggest issues with trying to learn how to keep discus alive is that everybody has an opinion on what must be done to keep these most sensitive and fickle critters swimming and happy. Wildly differing opinions mind you. So what I?m going to discuss here (no pun intended) is what works for me. I?ve been told that I?m ?breaking all the rules?, ?looking for disaster?, ?just plain lucky?, etc. from half the geek crowd, and applauded by the other half for finally getting it right. So, after over 40 years and several thousand dollars of Discus later, I seem to have a working formula that I?m going to share with all of you, that *may* also work for you in you own home.

Eek! I?m frightened already!
Uh, huh? And that?s a good thing! A good healthy respect of these animals will save you a bunch of frustration and grief in the long run. Like most fish in the ?high level of difficulty/care? range (most reference material puts these fish at a 4 on a scale of 1 ? 4), they are expensive. And they?re fragile, so fragile in fact that many retailers require payment in advance *before* they will put the net in the water to catch them. Discus rarely, if ever, carry any kind of live arrival guarantee, so if they die in the bag on the way home (yes, I?ve had that happen) your only recourse is to buy more Discus. These fish are definitely not for the faint of heart.

It?s the water?
Discus require absolutely perfect, and I do mean *perfect* water chemistry. There?s an old saying amongst Discus keepers that goes ?If you can measure it, it?s too high?. Even very small trace amounts of ammonia or nitrite will cause the discus to throw off their slime coat and die fairly quickly. A bit of nitrate is acceptable (.25 ppm or less) but one must be careful to make sure that regular water changes of at least 10% are done no less than once per week, more often if needed to maintain the necessary water parameters. pH above 6.5 can be very hard on them, and they are quite sensitive to pH ?bounce? so it?s necessary to run a full water test every other day or so. The preferred pH value and limitations depend on the type of discus. Heckel (Symphysodon discus discus) does best with the pH value of 5 or less, all the way down to 3.8 is ok with them too. One the other end of the scale, Blue discus (Symphysodon aequifasciata haraldi) are probably the most forgiving of higher pH values. I?ve found that 6.5 seems to be the ?sweet spot? for my Blues. Although it?s been reported that they have been found in water with a pH value in the mid 7?s, anytime the pH in my aquariums have been higher than 6.8 even my Blues would show signs of extreme stress, usually by strongly darkening their stress bars and ceasing to feed. I?ve tried just letting them adjust, and all I?ve ever ended up with is a bunch of sick discus that refuse to eat. Mixing a bit of straight RO/DI water into the tank, just enough to bring the value back to 6.5 usually does the trick and pulls them out of it quite nicely. They require very soft water (TDS of around 100) which can be attained using several different methods that include adding peat to the filter system, adding peat based blackwater extract, mixing in RO/DI water during water changes, and resin type filter additives such as a softener pillow. I?ve found that very small bi-weekly water changes of about 5% works very well in maintaining water quality. ?How do I keep nitrates so low with such minimal water changes?? you might ask. The key is something I mentioned in the beginning. ?There is nothing more satisfying than a big ?ol school swimming around in a well planted show tank?. The abundance of plants, and I do have them in there planted very thickly, complete the natural filtration process. The nitrifying bacteria present in the tank, filter media, etc. convert the ammonia and nitrite to nitrate, and the plants use the nitrate and produce oxygen during the day and carbon dioxide at night, which also helps stabilize the pH even though the water is so soft. Discus don?t like sweeping changes in their environment especially when it comes to their water parameters and the abundance of plants in the aquarium make that possible. The idea here is to only change as much water as is necessary to maintain the parameters. If greater weekly water volume changes are needed to maintain water quality, more frequent changes are better than large percentage ones. The one exception to that rule is when they?re getting ready to spawn, but we?ll talk more about that later. So, if your tank isn?t ?well planted? plan on more and possibly larger water changes. For me, I enjoy the natural beauty of the plants and I hate packing buckets of water. Even though I?ve been discussing wild caught fish here, their hybrid cousins have been line bred, inbred, and some say over bred to the point that many of the requirements necessary to keep wild discus may not be as strict with those animals. However I don?t believe a person can get rid of a couple million years of evolution by playing with the gene pool, even though it is at least theoretically possible to ?breed towards? traits that a person might desire, such as the Blues reported tolerance for higher pH values. I have personally had greater success keeping hybrid discus in what many folks would consider ?old school? water parameters, with the vast majority living over a decade, than I have by trying to force the discus into living in less than optimal conditions for the animal. As I said in the beginning this technique has served me well, however your mileage may vary.

[callen]

And the furnishings?
These fussy fish won?t tolerate plastic very well either. This means a 40-gallon or larger tank densely populated with live plants and natural wood. They eventually get used to the undergravel filter risers, but my Discus will never get closer than about 6 inches to them. Large rocks are also a no-no, their hide is fragile enough that a rock or sharp outcropping can cause a fatal injury, as they tend to be prone to bacterial infections from wounds. Bogwood from the Amazon is usually preferred over other types of driftwood, as it has naturally rounded edges and decays very slowly. Any sharp or pointed areas should be sanded or filed down before putting in a Discus aquarium. I always keep a supply of fishy boo-boo cream on hand (I like Pimafix and Melafix), just in case. Tank placement should be somewhere in the house that is fairly quiet and will remain reasonably unchanged. In the wild, Discus never intentionally travel more than 6 feet in any direction for their entire lives. Not counting of course natural occurrences that they have no control over such as flooding with heavy current, which can sweep away their cover or ?home? leaving them looking for a new place to hide. During the dry season they may become stranded in an acid pool as the water recedes. Still, in relation to the ground they haven?t moved, the river itself has, so the surroundings as they perceive them have remained the same. They are quite aware of the environment on our side of the glass, so moving your furniture around can cause them to stress, leading to slime loss, cessation of feeding, etc.

And the feeding, lighting, and temperature oh my!?
Discus need to be fed twice a day to keep them healthy and happy. Babies should also have a noon feeding. The timing can also be critical, they need their breakfast and dinner on or about the same time every day since to fail to do so can cause them to pile into a corner, turn black, and stop eating altogether. Discus need a balanced diet of both meaty foods and vegetable matter. I feed mine a combination of beefheart, bloodworms, blackworms, mysis shrimp, spirulina, and seaweed. I also feed fresh pressed garlic once a week to keep their immune systems healthy and their gut free of parasites. I don?t ever feed my discus flakes, it?s just not necessary. I view their food the same way I view mine. Fresh is best, frozen if you can?t find fresh, and processed as a last resort.  Their lights need to be turned on and off consistently as well. 12 hours on, 12 hours off. I put mine on a timer, and it has really made things easier. The light also needs to be kept as subdued as possible, I try not to exceed 1 watt per gallon, which does tend to limit the choice of plants that will survive. Temperature is also a consideration; they need HEAT, and lots of it. As in mid 80?s at least, I generally keep my tanks around 85, but up to 90 is just fine too. Wild caught fish will get sick if the temperature drops below 80 for very long, so I run 2 heaters in sync just in case one stops working as well as an inline unit on the canister filter. The hybrid versions tend to be a little more forgiving all these issues. 

Discus on a budget? I think not?
Due to the requirements of these animals as described above, there is just simply no way to keep them ?on the cheap?. In order to keep the water at the necessary pristine condition, the best filtration available is a must. And lots of it? Canister filter, powerheads for the undergravel filter, as much as you can run without causing too much water current. As I said before, I run 2 heaters so I have an automatic backup. Then there?s the UV sterilizer (not a must, but a nice insurance policy), and the CO2 system for the plants, again not a must, but helps keep the plants as healthy as the Discus. Then there?s the cost of the fish? A decent 3? baby (never start smaller, they?re just too fragile) starts at about $70 and can go up to better than $1000 for a 3? wild caught Royal Tefe?. A few years ago a wild caught Green Snakeskin (the only one known in existence) went for a whopping $1.5 million. Discus are schooling fish and like lots of company of their own kind. There are a few folks that believe one Discus per 10 gallons of water is sufficient. I have never had much success following that principal and found that one Discus per 7.5 gallons was where I started having a successful colony. There are other folks that pack them even tighter, just remember that if you are going to overstock, then you must also overfilter.

Is it all worth it in the end? I think so?
Discus are difficult to keep happy, alive, and swimming. They?re arguably one of the biggest challenges in fishkeeping, even for an advanced aquarist. Done correctly though they can be very long lived, well into their mid teens and even low twenties. For me, having them breed naturally in a colony setting is one of the greatest thrills in the entire hobby put together. As in all things, greater risk can reap greater rewards!

Scott Herbert

[whitedevil]

I appreciate the info, can you link me or email me the direct article for my dad?

It would help get the info there better. He got the filter system today and tomorrow we will install that dry, gotta look for eco complete too.

[callen]

I got in contact with Scott so I hope he pops on.  I do know he is very busy so we shall see.

That article is something he wrote up for another site...I just copies and pasted it.  But go way back with him and know he knows his discus.

[Dan]

Great stuff Callen.     Even though I dont have Discus,   that was very interesting reading.   

[whitedevil]

yes it helped alot. I appreciate the time to retrieve that info for me.