Topic: Fresh Start x2

[TehNonX]

I would like to refer you to this Thread as its where I've been posting until now. http://www.worldcichlids.com/portal/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=42&topic=17482.0

I have a 55g tank and I want to start a African Cichlid devoted tank. I found out that I can put limestone in the tank and well I'm in the limestone city xD Is there a limit to how much Limestone I can or should put into the tank?? Its going to be a very rocky setup and I could potentially make the whole thing out of limestone if possible. But I've never made a tank like this before so need some advice.


Modded*** Just got off the phone with the LFS, They said more limestone the better with an african setup. Is this true?

[TehNonX]

I don't know exactly what specific African Cichlid I want either. I was hoping for a mixed tank of different colours and types of Africans. I'm not exactly sure what characteristics I should be looking for as far as the fish are concerned though so I started looking up "Basic 55g African Cichlid stocking tips and lists" I have come across a couple lists of fish and personally I love this list.

    1 trio Protomelas
    1 trio Aulonocara
    1 trio Copadichromis
    1 trio Labidochromis or Cynotilapia
    4 Neolamprologus (larger species)
    2 Eretmodus or 1 trio Haplochromis
    2 Julidochromis (larger species)
    1 Synodontis Catfish
    1 medium sized Plecostomus

I'm not sure as far as numbers wise but fish wise ... I love it. Its lots of colours I was hoping for a yellow/orange/red ... But Could you guys suggest if this is a good stock for a 55g or suggest more/less/Different fish that would be appreciated. My gourami tank that I talked about in the American thread was my best tank ... I had a lot of help setting it up from the LFS and am trying to do more looking into this tank my self. I had the Gourami's for 2-3 years without incident before a heater blew and boiled my little buddies.

[Gerry]

What is your tap Ph?

With African cichlids you want a lot or rock to make caves, not sure you want all limestone though

[altaaffe]

As Gerry has said, not sure I'd go with too much lime stone but then I prefer to buffer my supersoft water with bicarb of soda and epsom salts.

As for the fish, there is a bit of mix there and from my own personal experience - I mixed them up when I started - you could find some of the weaker sets just getting harried and picked on until they give up.  Have a look if there are specific types, like Mbuna, Haps, Peacocks and then just stick to 2 or 3 different species within that group.  Also depending on the syno (eg multipunctatus) they may prefer company.

[TehNonX]

The guy at the LFS had told me that with our local tap water and Limestone will be okay. I have 1 penguin 350, rated at 70g of filtration. I'll be adding another under the suggestion of a few other people.I will be perfecting the water before ANY fish goes in. and I've narrowed it down to 3 species of fish. Hopefully they'll be okay.

Pseudotropheus demasoni,Labidochromis caeruleus and Aulonacara.  What do you guys think of this group?

And take a look a the tank the way it is now. Do you think thats enough caves. I've seen people with WAY less ... and A lot more. So .. Curious.

http://s1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee393/NonTehX/?action=view&current=DSC04806.jpg

[Gerry]

with filtration forget what size tank they say it does, with cichlids you want the filter output in LPH/GPH.  HOB filtration you want tank volume x 10 and canister tank volume x 5.

I think you need more caves

[TehNonX]

Not exactly sure what you mean Gerry. Could you elaborate?

[Gerry]

I have 1 penguin 350, rated at 70g of filtration. I'll be adding another under the suggestion of a few other people

Most filters tell you what size tank they should do but this is never adequate for cichlids. It is better to know the flow rate of the filter, once you do this get enough filtration to turn your tank volume through the filter/s in the following numbers.

If you are running Hang On Back (HOB) filters or internals you want your tank volume x 10 to be turned over per hour

If you have cannister filtration you want your tank volume x 5 to be turned over per hour.

Example for HOB; tank volume 55 gallons x 10 = 550, you would then need your HOB filters to have a flow rate of 550 gallons per hour, either singularly or in combination

[TehNonX]

This is a description pulled from 1 of many sites.

"Rated at 350 gallons per hour for tanks up to 75 gallons in volume. Each filter measures approximately 14-1/4" x 5-1/2" x 7-1/2" and extends 3-1/4" behind tank. Includes extension tubes up to 13-1/2" tank depth. Two Rite-Size C-cartridge included. 120 VAC, 60 Hz operation. UL listed. Made in the USA."


So if my 1 moves 350ph ... Would it really be necessary to get two?  If I did it would be 700ph/roughly correct? And would that be overkill?

[Gerry]

you need two as these fish are messy and with Africans you will be heavy stocked to keep aggression spread out.

Overkill on filtration is hard as it really is only when the flow throws the fish around.

Advantage of 2 is also you can clean one (in old tank water to preserve most of the bacteria you need) and leave one till later, thus minimising the risk of a mini ammonia spike.

[altaaffe]

Some smaller rocks in there to help create more spaces might work, I use plastic pipes siliconed together to provide a base and then position the rocks around and above them, this way it creates more caves.

As for the fish, I think the Aulonocara could well get pushed around by the Mbuna, especially the Demasoni.

[tracey]

Most Syno species small emough to fit comfortably into a 55 gallon prefer to be kept in groups, as Alt said. 

Also, if you're going to be doing anything to your water chemistry to change the ph or hardness, most Pleco's will not survive well in the tank.  Being South American, they come from naturally neutral or soft water, and the ones that can adapt to hard water are the big tank-busting Common's. 

You might be better to think of a trio of one of the smaller Syno's, like Multi's, and forget the Pleco 

I also wouldn't keep Demasoni with anything other than Demasoni, they can be bad tempered and quite aggressive towards the other fish.  This will likely increase dramatically if you happen to get a m/f mix and they try to spawn.

Aulonacara (Peacocks) don't mix well at all with Rift Lake species like Demasoni.  They're far too placid.  I speak from personal experience here, I lost all my Peacocks in the first month my Rift Lake tank was set up to my Bumblebee's   They do OK with Electric Yellows though.

Electric Yellows (Labidochromis caerulus) are my favourite African cichlid.  They seem to be able to handle themselves against many of the "big bads" from the region, but are not aggressive themselves.  They're also dead easy to breed, which can be good fun to watch.

[TehNonX]

So my tanks set up ... It's doing great. Everyones getting along great as well.
I have 700g of filtration an hour. I couldn't narrow it down so I just paid a few extra bucks for my LFS stock the tank for me. The gentlemen that stocked the tank, I know is a huge cichlid fan. So I trust him. Here's what we got.

2 yellow labs
2 Kenyi
2 Jaconfrobergi
2 Cherry Spot Tropheus
2 O.B. Zebras
2 Red Dragon Peacock
2 Frontosa
2 Tropheus Moori
1 Cobalt Blue Zebra.

Been test stripping it every day to keep track of all the minerals. Everything seems to be going A Okay! Thanks for your advice in setting stuff up guys. xD

[tracey]

You are aware, aren't you, that Frontosa grow to 12"SL.  And that they need to be kept in a harem group of one male to 5 or 6 females.  They're also highly predatory and will start eating your other fish as soon as they're large enough.

For the rest, let's have a look at them

Lake Malawi - ph 7.7 to 8.8
Yellow Labs
Kenyi (Metraclima lombardi)
Cobalt Blue Zebra (Maybe Pseudotropheus callainos if you're very lucky, but most likely P. zebra)

Lake Tanganyika - ph 8.6 to 9.2
Cherry Spot Tropheus (Tropheus moorii Bulu Point "Cherry Spot")
Frontosa
Tropheus moorii

And then you have the two hybrids, the OB Zebras and the Red Dragon Peacock, also called Dragonsblood Peacocks.

You're mixing lakes and that is tricky at the best of times.  Kenyi's and both of your Tropheus species are known for their aggression, and anything Pseudotropheus isn't far behind them as far as temper goes.  You've also got two different varients of the T. moorii, so you're risking hybridization as well as severe aggression between all four.

Also, remember you have juveniles at the moment, not sexually mature adults.  My Malawi tank went great for the first 6 months, then first my Bumblebees, then my Auratus matured and they started killing everything in sight.  Your tank is unlkely to stay peaceful for long, so be prepared when it all goes down the drain and don't say you weren't warned.

[TehNonX]

Don't judge me for not trusting my own judgement and wanting to not screw things up. I talked to 3 different people at the store and they are reassured me that it'll be fine.

Whats the deal folks?

Ive also been doing research with a few different forums. I could not come up with a solid stocking list and had paid the LFS to stock it for me. I tried to do the right thing here people. What do I do??

I'm going to post A couple posts in this one.

POST 1 -"No offense as the LFS guy may be a fan but his stock list is way of base, each one or those fish you listed should be kept alone and certainly not mixed into one small tank with the "hey let's hope for the best" stocking method.

1. Mbuna and peacocks should not be mixed due to different aggression issues.
2. Mbuna should be stocked with 1m/4f. to prevent hybrids/aggression.
3. Frostosa's should not be stocked with mbuna or peacocks, they are passive and will have time competeing for food. They are also fish that form a tight structured colony.
4. The Tropheous should be stocked almost identical to Frontosa. Since they also form a social colony and heirarchy which is marvelous to watch. It's like having a king, queen, court members and jestor.

Your labs will hybidize with the zebras, your Kenyi when maturing will decimate the tank, and the Frontosa, Tropheous ,and peacocks won't flourish being under constant stress.

Not to mention Frontosa's get upwards of 14" and are carnivores. I would give some serious time researching this if you don't believe me but there's no way that stock works!"

Post 2 :I agree with HUKIT.
You are going to have big trouble later with this stocking list. My experience is that the moori is bullying the frontosa, when it gets a bit more mature, I had to say goodbye to my frontosas in the past for that reason. Not to mention both cichlid should be kept in a bigger (minimum 400l ~87us gallons) tank. Moori is should be kept in a group of minimum 8-10. Frontosa is working better in a bigger group too, they get shy if they are alone. And as I said earlier the cichlid from the two lakes are not good to mix.
Well all this are going to be a good reason for an upgrade later. Good luck and keep us up-to-date.


And A post I got this morning. "I can't give specific freshwater advice because I only do saltwater tanks but I can give some good common sense advice.

First... I wouldn't feel too badly. Everyone of us (without exception) have made stocking mistakes. Most of us (and by that I mean almost all... Lol) still do on occasion.

Second... I would wait and watch. Fish personalities are like people. There are good and bad. And there are exceptions to EVERY rule. Keep a close watch on your tank. The aquarist who spends time with his tank daily is the guy who has the best luck. Get to know each of your fish. See how they act, behave, etc. When trouble starts you are one step ahead with early recognition. If one (or more) of your fish develops behavior problems.. Pull them out. From there you can decide what to do. Juveniles are way more easy going than adults so you probably have some time. And maybe.. Just maybe you might not ever have problems. I wouldn't panic just yet.
Every person on these forums has a different opinion. And a lot of them have great advice to offer. The new guys believe in the people that we think know more than we do but on occasion... Everyone can be wrong. Go with what sounds right to you. You'll do fine. You want the best for your new tank and with that kind of attention.... It'll work out. Good luck and keep us posted. These guys will try their best to guide you through any rough patches."

Post 4 : I agree with moving the rocks around when new fish are added, this means that all of the fish have to establish new territories. As long as there is plenty of rockwork and caves for the fish you should be fine. What I don't understand is why they told you to move the filters, that is a bit strange!
The same fish can behave differently in different tanks as someone has already mentioned, you do need to keep an eye on the fish but I have peacocks in my tank. They are certainly not bothered about fighting for the food.

In the future if you do find some of the fish not settling then it may be worth trading them but just keep a close eye on things, by the way I have at least 4 males that are eyeing up the dominant male spot and they are still not overly aggressive even though they have all coloured up.


I'm trying to do my best to maintain these fish. They all seem to be doing wonderful. But like you said ... They are Juv's ... not adults.