Topic: Observing Agression and Biotope Questions......

[Grasshopper]

The noob strikes again...

As I have stated in my previous posts , I have become an unexpected Convict breeder.  So I have now let my fry grow up with their Dad, and they are now 1/2" to 3/4" long.  I have been watching to see who becomes the "top dog". There are 5 striped and 3 pink, here is there "chain of command"

Rank - Color - Size (1 = largest, 8 = smallest) - Sex (best guess @ this point)

Dad - Pink - 2.5" - 3" Long
Mom - Striped (deceased)

1 - P - 3 - M 
2 - P - 4 - F (really unsure about this one)
3 - S - 1 - M
4 - S - 2 - M
5 - P - 5 - F
6 - S - 6 - M
7 - S - 7 - F
8 - S - 8 - F

Now what I find interesting is the Pinks dominance in the tank, the #1 & #2 Fry is considerably smaller than both the #3 & #4. Could this be due to the Pink parent with them? Are pinks natrually more agressive? The #3 fish is very brave, whenever I am in the room he is hanging out in the front of the tank checking me out. It's actualy a bit creepy.  What is really interesting is how when dad leaves his cave, (there are 2 large caves and one small) #1 swims right into it and stays there untill Dad comes back and nips him. Kinda funny really, dad swims in and this little pink fry comes blasting out at full speed...

I also have a question about a tank set-up:  I am looking at a 75 Gal (48"x18"x20") tank, and I want to set up a "central american mountian stream" biotope.  Been doing a little reading as you can see!  Does any one have any expirence creating a "fast" moving current in a tank?  If given proper "shelter" from the current  (properly placed caves & ledges) will they thrive? Would this kepp the agression in the tank down, as it would require alot more energy expended to travel to their nemisises real estate? any ideas would be helpful. I grew up Fly fishing in New England so I have a real good Idea of what the bottom of fast moving streams and rapids look like, and how the fish (trout) relate to it.  I was going to stock the tank with convicts (the fry) and "Long Finned" Cichlids as these are there natrual "stream-mates" in this habitat. I am quite unsure of the stocking levels, both Cichlid and "Dither" fish, and any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated..


Matt 

[tracey]

To the best of my knowledge, none of the different colour morphs of convicts are any more aggressive than the others, so I would guess that it is just coincidence and the individual personality of your little ones that have put the pinks on top of the hierachy.  Dad sounds like he was pretty aggressive, so they've probably just inheritied his temper, along with his colour. 

As far as creating a Central American mountain stream biotype, if you're really keen on doing that, I'd suggest you have a look around and see if you can get an idea what they look like.  From what I've seen both on tv and on the net, they're very different from mountain streams in non-tropical areas.  As far as water flow goes, I would suggest keeping it under the point where your fish are having to swim to keep steady in the current.  Convicts are only little fish, and you don't want them having to expend too much energy staying in one place.  A 75 gallon tank doesn't really give you enough space to provide backwaters for them to relax in.  It may help to keep the fish away from each other, but it would also confine them to a much smaller area than they would have in the wild.  If half your tank is taken up with fast flowing water, then really, you would be stocking a 35 gallon tank, rather than a 75.  If your cons can't use that space as part of their terrritory, then it reduces the number you could have in there. 

In regards to stocking levels, it will depend entirely on what fish you want to have in your tank.  I haven't heard of "long-finned" cichlids, do you have a scientific name for them?  What other species are you planning on putting in the tank?  Biotype tanks are a great idea, but you really need to do your research beforehand to make sure that you do choose species that will tolerate each other.  You also have the problem that when your fry get to breeding size the aggression levels in your tank will increase substantially, and fish that might have been tolerated before will not be tolerated any more. 

The following link is a good source of information, not only on convicts, but on the areas that they live in in the wild.  You might find some of the info helpful if you're positive you want to do a biotype tank.  Be warned, the site can run a little slow sometimes 

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Archocentrus&speciesname=nigrofasciatus

[Grasshopper]

Yes, he is a little terror.  He bites me, and if there are little ones...forget it he is just beside himself with rage..

I went and got a 10 gal last night to use as a "hospital/quarentine" tank. If he gets too agressive can I put hin in that tank for a day or 2 to calm him down? Will this hurt him?

I have read that site, plus 100 others (been dabbling in internet developing for 10 years, its pretty easy for me to find nformation.  I also went out and got a book on biotiope tanks and a book on cichlids. Was going to go to Barnes and Nobels tonight to see what they have.  Trying to get as much information as I can.

The Long finned cichlids scientific name is "Cichlasoma"(Amphilophus) longimanus.

Here is where I got the Idea:  http://fish.mongabay.com/biotope_cen_america_atlantic.htm

I have fished / swam / rafted on quite a few streams  that look alot like the ones pictured. 

As the Fry are concerned: I just want to keep them as long as I can, the LFS will pay better $ for bigger fish. When there becomes a problem I will sell them. I hope to in the end get 1 pair of convicts and 1 pair of long finned with other "dither' fish.

Water speed: He he, everybody reacts the same way at first.. If you look at the 4 Biotopes on the page I am looking for #1 possibly #2 (lack of plants is appealing in #1). I was thinking of creating a "current", not fast but noticiable, about 8" below the surface, I was going to use blue lighting to simulate a depth of a 15'-20'  mountian stream. I have all these ideas but have "speed" and "refracting" (what happens when the "current" hist the glass") so I figured I would come to the experts to see if it can be done.  My #1 Concern is for "hurricane" and the rest of the "gang".  Is this just a pipe dream??

Thank you..

[tracey]

OK, now I see where you're going with this tank    Sorry man, I guess I'm too used to ppl who have these great ideas and haven't really looked into what those ideas entail.  With the refraction of the current against the glass, you can get around that by angling the head of whatever you use to create the current towards either the front or the back of the tank, get it moving in kind of a circle.  That should prevent it hitting the wall and blasting down towards the bottom, if thats what you're worried about.  Most canister filters will throw out water at quite a rate of knots, so maybe a canister at each end to create a circular current close to the surface.  You'd just have to be careful how you angled the outflows on them.  What your're talking about is totally doable if you're willing to put in the effort, which you obviously are.  I've never tackled a biotype tank before so I know squat about them, my experience is in cichlid or species-only tanks,  but if you want to bounce idea's around, it would be great to find out more about them.  I welcome the chance to find out first hand about this type of things.  That #3 looks like it would be fun to tackle, a little bit of current, a little bit of still water...... might be nice for the mix of fish you're looking at, especially the longimanus.  Sounds like its gonna be a fun project to tackle.

[Grasshopper]

I totally understand. I have been really looking into this. I really dig the biotope concept. I am looking forward to the challange. I have been into model trains as a hobby from an early age and am very used to dealing with intricate setup that require an attention to detail. I have actually built working suspension bridge 51/2' long for my fathers lionel train table, it could hold 50 lbs in the center and 75 @ the 2 towers...

So I am in the process of breaking down how I am going to build it (have a power point presentation for it) and will have a print of the tank soon (ms Visio). 

Right now I am just collecting Rocks and Driftwood. (On another note, what is the best way to "prep" Rocks and driftwood that comes from the Gulf of Mexico? There is a ton of mangrove growing wild here along the coast so finding cool driftwood is easy. I have heard of boiling it but if the pieces are too long, or in the case of the rocks too big, for them to be boiled? )I plan on getting the Tank/Glass in the next few weeks and I will go from there. I would much rather it be done right than fast.
The current... I am thinking on the apperence of a left to right flow, I was going to use rock / roots to simulate the "bank", this would be the back wall of the tank. To make it even more complicated I dont want the fish exposed to water moving "upstream".  So here is what I was thinking. If the water in the front of the tank is flowing left to right then the water in the back must flow right to left, in the circular motioned you referenced . Could this be accomplished with a "fake wall", possibly plexiglass with some holes in either end. I could then attach my "bank" to it.  Is there anything with water flow, besides comon sense, I should be aware of?

When it comes to pets and projects I am obsessive, If you knew me you would understand.

 

Thank you again..

[tracey]

Lol, obsessive and fish is not a bad combination.  At least you know you'll get things right.

OK, you're talking about channeling the return flow behind a fake wall.......... interesting concept.  It should work in theory, but I'm sure I don't have to tell you what can happen to therory's in real life    It would depend on just how wide a current you end up getting.  Too wide and the wall would have to take up half your tank    The best way to tell would probably be to set up your tank with water, the fake wall and your filters/powerheads and use some natural food colouring of some kind to see where the water current actually flows.  Only problem with that would be it might end up colouring your silicone, but you shouldn't have to use too much to get an idea of where your waterflow is going.  Water can be perverse stuff, sometimes no matter what you do it refuses to go where you want it    Common sense should get you thru ok as long as you're not the sort of person to lose their temper in a hurry 

For the rocks and driftwood, I would just scrub them thoroughly with really hot water.  You can use a light solution of chlorine based bleach if you want, just dunk them in some water with dechlorinator afterwards to make sure you get rid of it all.  Some ppl suggest cooking your rocks for a while in a really hot oven, but I have heard of rocks exploding while ppl were doing that, so I'm not sure if you'd want to risk it.  Driftwood poses a bit more of a problem.  You could soak it in your tank once you have it, while you're still doing your research, to get rid of as much of the crud as possible.  You might need to change the water on a regular basis, I know I did when I used that method to clean some large bits of driftwood I got from the beach. 

[Grasshopper]

Well thank you very much. I will let you know how my "expirments" go. I just hop I don't over-engineer it!! 

[tracey]

You're very welcome!!  Good luck, I can't wait to hear how it turns out.  Maybe you should document your progress, do an article for the DIY forum.  I'm sure there would be a lot of ppl, not just me, who would love to see first hand how to set up a biotype tank

[Grasshopper]

That sounds like a plan. I figured that this would be , I really need to invest in a digital camera for pics.. I figure it will take a few weeks to get the water flow right.  I have nothing better to do and it does present a challenge.  I figure I need to set one side to push and one side to pull, I need to keep the outflow/inflow high in the tank so the "current' dissapates with depth, my concern with this is filtering. should the "pull" side pull from the bottom, for effective filtration, or can I compensate with a massive filter system.

The more question I answer the more I get...

[tracey]

Hmmm, tricky......... for the best filtration you really want the water circulating vertically, but to keep the current from taking over the whole tank, you'd really want it to circulate horizontally.  Maybe it might be better to use powerheads to create the current, rather than using the filters to do it....... spread out the filter returns with spraybars, so as not to interfere with the current you're creating with the powerheads too much........ I don't know, thats an interesting one    Or maybe use small internal filters to create the current.  Use them for mechanical filtration and use a smaller canister exclusively for biological filtration....... load it up with ceramics or bioballs........ you're right, this one is gonna take some thinking about and expreimenting with 

[JC]

Uhhh that' squite the read....   Are you really sure you would want to put in a midas in a 75g with convicts and other decorations though?   Doesn't seem as  either the tank or the cons would hve a very long life 

[Grasshopper]

I belive I will skip the Midas and stick to the cons and long finned....Where did you get Midas from? (or plant decoratons) I said I only wnated the cons and the Long Finned? Did I use the wrong scientific name?

BTW, I agree with you, a midas would cause "gangland" style warfare in the tank....

[JC]

Actually I rather jumped the gun by shooting midas straightaway. Midas is part of the amphilophus group as are red devils, trimacs and a whack of other fish.. it's really my mistake there so I apologize for my oversight.  Still though I don't know if a fish from that family would necessarily work in that size or type of setup. I'm soooooooo not qualified to answer that I could think of a couple people to approach for info about those particular fish though

Actually I got midas from the amphilogus (cichlasoma) part... Again, sorry, it jumped on my brain instantly and I forgot to include the longimatus (hahahaha @ myself)

[tracey]

Well given a convicts propensity to violence, I don't think they'd have any problems dealing with an amphilophus, especially a small one like the longimanus.  There might be a few mexican standoffs from time to time, but I'm fairly sure the cons can hold their own

[JC]

You're right . Now that I see exactly what it is, I tend to agree .